It sounds like the optimization/sizing logic is failing to recognize the hidden attribute on the left side panels. Am investigating...

Appreciate it Cap... thanks.

Ok, let's try this version...

ash-6.5.1708.8-w32c-upd.zip

While you're at it, make sure you have the 7.53 version of the tree DLL ...

SftTree_IX86_U_75.dll

Note that this version also supports Filter=NONE in the zero column working the way you requested in this post.

Thanks Cap - will try to get this tested today. If not, enjoy the long holiday weekend!

Good Monday -

I hope you have arisen from your carb and suds induced stupor. For me i added some weekend hikes and maybe managed to burn 1/10 of the calories consumed... long way to go towards knocking off hibernation / covid reserves

I have tested the new rev... (i already had the proper .dll loaded), now the leftpanel is docked/slammed as far to the left as possible, so no joy to be found yet. Clicking reset cols does place it in the correct position. Let me know if a trace would help. Not a rush on this as it's going to be an inhouse utility.

PS: If it matters running linux/server 6.5.1690.2

TIA

What would be the most helpful is if I could just ATE direct to that program, which would allow me to step through the logic in action.

Second best would be a trace with XTREE and XDEBUG set.

The fact that it resets properly when you do the reset column operation seems like a hopeful sign, and also an indication that it's somehow tied to the previously saved settings rather than the specifications (which makes it harder to reproduce).

Might not be much help. I was only able to capture xtree trace as xdebug seemed to be filtering off my mouse clicks and not transferring the exitcodes back to the program. Program is in limp mode i would need to tighten it up before you wasted your time connecting. The first display is correct.. remaining clicks are all bad except the last one where i click back on the main panel. Perhaps i have other xtrctl settings that are not optimized... not sure.

0 15:06:41 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=12000,1000, par=9, max=7, icc=0, hwe=0
1 15:06:41 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
2 15:06:41 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=7
3 15:06:41 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
4 15:06:41 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
5 15:06:41 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
6 15:06:50 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10002 (mask:1)
7 15:06:50 <TELNET:45e4> xrow chg from 1 to 6 (rowidxcno=16, dsprow=0)
8 15:06:50 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
9 15:06:50 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10002 (-10002), xrow/col=6,0, trow/col=6,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=6, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
10 15:06:50 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 3262 to 32 bytes (7 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10002]
12 15:06:51 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=9, max=241, icc=0, hwe=0
13 15:06:51 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
14 15:06:51 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=241
15 15:06:51 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
16 15:06:51 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
17 15:06:51 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
18 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10003 (mask:1)
19 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> xrow chg from 1 to 136 (rowidxcno=16, dsprow=0)
20 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
21 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10003 (-10003), xrow/col=136,0, trow/col=136,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=136, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
22 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 112306 to 1200 bytes (241 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10003]
24 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=9, max=41, icc=0, hwe=0
25 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
26 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=41
27 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
28 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
29 15:06:57 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
30 15:07:05 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10004 (mask:1)
31 15:07:05 <TELNET:45e4> xrow chg from 1 to 40 (rowidxcno=16, dsprow=0)
32 15:07:05 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
33 15:07:05 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10004 (-10004), xrow/col=40,0, trow/col=40,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=40, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
34 15:07:05 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 19106 to 200 bytes (41 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10004]
36 15:07:06 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=9, max=9, icc=0, hwe=0
37 15:07:06 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
38 15:07:06 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=9
39 15:07:06 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
40 15:07:06 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
41 15:07:06 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
42 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10005 (mask:1)
43 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> xrow chg from 1 to 4 (rowidxcno=16, dsprow=0)
44 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
45 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10005 (-10005), xrow/col=4,0, trow/col=4,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=4, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
46 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 4194 to 40 bytes (9 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10005]
48 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=9, max=13, icc=0, hwe=0
49 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
50 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=13
51 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
52 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
53 15:07:15 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
54 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10006 (mask:1)
55 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> xrow chg from 1 to 6 (rowidxcno=16, dsprow=0)
56 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
57 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10006 (-10006), xrow/col=6,0, trow/col=6,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=6, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
58 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 6058 to 60 bytes (13 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10006]
60 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=9, max=30, icc=0, hwe=0
61 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
62 15:07:18 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=30
63 15:07:19 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
64 15:07:19 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
65 15:07:19 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
66 15:07:23 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10002 (mask:1)
67 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
68 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10002 (-10002), xrow/col=1,0, trow/col=1,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=1, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
69 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 13980 to 145 bytes (30 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10002]
71 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=9, max=241, icc=0, hwe=0
72 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
73 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=9, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=241
74 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
75 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
76 15:07:24 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
77 15:07:30 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
78 15:07:30 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!

How about if you leave XDEBUG on just until the first XCALL XTREE (so as to capture the coldef) and then turn it off?

Sure.. this is the first panel displayed, but the split panel is already in wrong position here. HTH

0 17:43:17 <TELNET:45e4> wait on socket: 17:43:11 .....
1 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
2 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 1,1
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
3 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 0,2
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
4 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=12000,1000, par=2, max=7, icc=0, hwe=0
5 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
6 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=2, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=7
7 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> DPI: 96, comboheight: 24, largebuttons: 1, hbtn: 1050d9a, -dpm: 0, chkbox: 21
8 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~Font~H~HdrScale=80~HdrFont=Tahoma,9600
9 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~x~H~PopupMenu=|%miame%\icons\beta\our_customers_64.png=24|Add Client,VK_xF20001;|%miame%\icons\beta\open_64.png=24|Open in Excel,$EXPCSV+;-----,;|%miame%\icons\beta\refresh_64.png=24|Reset Columns,$RESETCFG
10 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 1~1~Color~Hb
11 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=1: 2~1~Filter~H0UE#
12 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=2: 3~7~Reserved~HS
13 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=3: 10~4~Num~#H~Filter=None
14 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=4: 14~20~Type~SH
15 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=5: 34~20~Active~SH
16 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=6: 54~100~Customer~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
17 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=7: 154~20~DB~S|~Filter=None
18 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=8: 174~40~Status~S|~Dspmin=3
19 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=9: 214~50~EHR~S|
20 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=10: 317~10~PMS
Package~S|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
21 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=11: 327~10~Contract
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
22 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=12: 337~10~Subscription
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
23 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=13: 357~10~Live
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
24 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=14: 347~10~Completed
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
25 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=15: 367~100~Notes~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
26 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgEven=234,243,255
27 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgOdd=255,255,255
28 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,150,150,R
29 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=131,201,129,G
30 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,170,Y
31 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,255,W
32 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=150,150,150,Z
33 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=100,100,100,D
34 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,182,108,O
35 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~X~H~FooterScale=90~FooterFont=Tahoma,9600
36 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgFooter=255,255,200
37 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
38 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (266 ms)
39 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
40 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> 7 Items loaded / 0 deleted from data array: 0 ms
41 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
42 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go1: clock=1714045953
43 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
44 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> Set optimization limit to 100 rows (col 15)
45 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> Columns optimized: 16 ms (rows=7, cols=17)
46 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
47 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go: time=1714046031
48 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
49 17:43:20 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 22, id=1772
50 17:43:21 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
51 17:43:22 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 23, id=1772
52 17:43:22 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
53 17:43:22 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!

Try this version ...
ash-6.5.1709.0-w32c-upd.zip

WARNING: this is a "very beta" version for unrelated reasons, with the most obvious one being that PDFX is broken (due to an update in progress). So only use it for in-house testing. I tweaked the threshold between going with the control's recommended splitter position and the one we manually calculate, and also added some relevant traces (set the XTREE trace flag).

Thanks Cap - understood. Giving it a test drive now...

Ok not sure what results you were expecting.. but same issue persists, however with a new anamoly of missing entire row data in the clicked on panels. Clicking reset cols brings everything back. The initial trace includes xtree and xdebug, then i turned off xdebug and clicked a new panel... not sure that helps or not.

0 16:04:37 <TELNET:45e4> wait on socket: 16:04:29 .....
1 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
2 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 1,1
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
3 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 0,2
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
4 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=12000,1000, par=2, max=7, icc=0, hwe=0
5 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
6 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=2, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=7
7 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> DPI: 96, comboheight: 24, largebuttons: 1, hbtn: 730510a7, -dpm: 0, chkbox: 21
8 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~Font~H~HdrScale=80~HdrFont=Tahoma,9600
9 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~x~H~PopupMenu=|%miame%\icons\beta\our_customers_64.png=24|Add Client,VK_xF20001;|%miame%\icons\beta\open_64.png=24|Open in Excel,$EXPCSV+;-----,;|%miame%\icons\beta\refresh_64.png=24|Reset Columns,$RESETCFG
10 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 1~1~Color~Hb
11 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=1: 2~1~Filter~H0UE#
12 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=2: 3~7~Reserved~HS
13 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=3: 10~4~Num~#H~Filter=None
14 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=4: 14~20~Type~SH
15 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=5: 34~20~Active~SH
16 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=6: 54~100~Customer~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
17 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=7: 154~20~DB~S|~Filter=None
18 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=8: 174~40~Status~S|~Dspmin=3
19 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=9: 214~50~EHR~S|
20 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=10: 317~10~PMS
Package~S|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
21 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=11: 327~10~Contract
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
22 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=12: 337~10~Subscription
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
23 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=13: 357~10~Live
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
24 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=14: 347~10~Completed
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
25 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=15: 367~100~Notes~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
26 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgEven=234,243,255
27 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgOdd=255,255,255
28 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,150,150,R
29 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=131,201,129,G
30 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,170,Y
31 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,255,W
32 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=150,150,150,Z
33 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=100,100,100,D
34 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,182,108,O
35 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~X~H~FooterScale=90~FooterFont=Tahoma,9600
36 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgFooter=255,255,200
37 16:04:39 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
38 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (250 ms)
39 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
40 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> 7 Items loaded / 0 deleted from data array: 0 ms
41 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
42 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go1: clock=1794526375
43 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
44 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> Set optimization limit to 100 rows (col 15)
45 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> Columns optimized: 16 ms (rows=7, cols=17)
46 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
47 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go: time=1794526453
48 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
49 16:04:40 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
50 16:04:42 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
51 16:04:42 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!
52 16:04:52 <TELNET:45e4> ProcessKBDClick: VK_xF10003 (mask:1)
53 16:04:52 <TELNET:45e4> xrow chg from 1 to 6 (rowidxcno=16, dsprow=0)
54 16:04:52 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE pckexit
55 16:04:52 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE exit: rtncde: 0, extcod: -10003 (-10003), xrow/col=6,0, trow/col=6,0, xvalid=0, navcod/mask=0x0/0x0, selrow=6, t/l idx=0,0, edit=0x0, icc=0
56 16:04:52 <TELNET:45e4> XtrOpt[c]: Ansary shortened from 3262 to 32 bytes (7 segments) using diff
EXITCODE=[10003]
58 16:04:53 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=1500,1000, par=2, max=41, icc=0, hwe=0
59 16:04:53 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
60 16:04:53 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=2, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=41
61 16:04:53 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (0 ms)
62 16:04:53 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
63 16:04:53 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
64 16:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE: checking contextmenu row=14 (366), col=15 (402), px=1, bPcklst=1
65 16:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE: processing contextmenu: row=14, col=15, px=0
66 16:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SBRMSG,26,10) cache error!
67 16:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SBRMSG,26,14) cache error!
68 16:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SBRMSG,26,8) cache error!
69 16:05:01 <TELNET:45e4> Adjusting fonts by 0%...
70 16:05:01 <TELNET:45e4> Updating cells...
71 16:05:01 <TELNET:45e4> Font housekeeping...
72 16:05:01 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=0, colflags=8001,0,20000
73 16:05:03 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
74 16:05:04 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!

Something fishy here. We should see traces that look like this:


Does your About box show a Release Date of 20-Nov-2021?

I'm wondering whether there was some mix-up in the upload or the download. But just to be sure, I've just recompiled it (release date now shows 30-Nov) and changed the link slightly (adding an 'a'), so let's give it one more try:
ash-6.5.1709.0a-w32c-upd.zip

Also, can you confirm your xtr.leftpanewidth and xtr.leftpanecols values? (They don't show in the trace).

I am not seeing the (a) rev here... the date is today?

leftpanelcols=9 (taking into consideration all the hidden cols)

leftpanelwidth=?? this value is not set... so assuming 0

Triple checked the install area even clicked one .exe from explorer to be sure and comes up the same each time.

This is pretty baffling. The About box looks right, but if you have leftpanecols > 0 and leftpanewidth = 0 then it should be calling the routine to calculate the pane position, in which case you should get the splitter traces.

Aside from when you load the tree, another way to force that calculation would be with Control+ or Control- to adjust the font size.

Just to be sure about those leftpane values, I've posted yet another version which will display them (but it requires the XTREE and XDEBUG traces)...

ash-6.5.1709.0b-w32c-upd.zip

The info appears as follows:


Since that trace is already present in your trace log (without the leftsplit suffix), we should be able to confirm definitely whether you have the right exe and/or right values. If that doesn't get us anywhere, we may have to revise setting up a direct connection for me to be able step through it.

Agreed the wild goose chase might not be the best way to triage this... in the meantime here is the xtree/xdebug trace. Seems there are some newer messages here. Also, hitting ctrl+/- does recalculate the display correctly adding the panel back.

0 10:04:50 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
1 10:04:50 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
2 10:04:50 <TELNET:45e4> wait on socket: 10:04:38 .....
3 10:04:56 <TELNET:45e4> wait on socket: 10:04:53 ...
4 10:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
5 10:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 1,1
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
6 10:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> xtab: loading functions
7 10:04:59 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 0,2
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
8 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Loading SftTree_IX86_U_75
9 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=12000,1000, par=2, max=7, icc=0, hwe=0
10 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
11 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=2, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=7
12 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: loading split functions
13 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> DPI: 96, comboheight: 24, largebuttons: 1, hbtn: 23051273, -dpm: 0, chkbox: 21
14 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~Font~H~HdrScale=80~HdrFont=Tahoma,9600
15 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~x~H~PopupMenu=|%miame%\icons\beta\our_customers_64.png=24|Add Client,VK_xF20001;|%miame%\icons\beta\open_64.png=24|Open in Excel,$EXPCSV+;-----,;|%miame%\icons\beta\refresh_64.png=24|Reset Columns,$RESETCFG
16 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 1~1~Color~Hb
17 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=1: 2~1~Filter~H0UE#
18 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=2: 3~7~Reserved~HS
19 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=3: 10~4~Num~#H~Filter=None
20 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=4: 14~20~Type~SH
21 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=5: 34~20~Active~SH
22 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=6: 54~100~Customer~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
23 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=7: 154~20~DB~S|~Filter=None
24 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=8: 174~40~Status~S|~Dspmin=3
25 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=9: 214~50~EHR~S|
26 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=10: 317~10~PMS
Package~S|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
27 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=11: 327~10~Contract
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
28 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=12: 337~10~Subscription
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
29 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=13: 357~10~Live
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
30 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=14: 347~10~Completed
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
31 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=15: 367~100~Notes~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
32 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgEven=234,243,255
33 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgOdd=255,255,255
34 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,150,150,R
35 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=131,201,129,G
36 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,170,Y
37 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,255,W
38 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=150,150,150,Z
39 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=100,100,100,D
40 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,182,108,O
41 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=0,128,255,B
42 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~X~H~FooterScale=90~FooterFont=Tahoma,9600
43 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgFooter=255,255,200
44 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
45 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (250 ms)
46 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
47 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> 7 Items loaded / 0 deleted from data array: 0 ms
48 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
49 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go1: clock=1859349250
50 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
51 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Set optimization limit to 100 rows (col 15)
52 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Columns optimized: 16 ms (rows=7, cols=17)
53 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
54 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter opt pos: 1065, tree width: 1231
55 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter recalc pos: 0
56 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go: time=1859349328, leftsplit=9,0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
57 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
58 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter opt pos: 0, tree width: 1231
59 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 22, id=1772
60 10:05:00 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
61 10:05:07 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 23, id=1772
62 10:05:09 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
63 10:05:09 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!

Ok, we've confirmed that you have the latest version, and that you have leftpanecols=9 and leftpanewidth=0.
Also, the trace suggests that XTREE thinks that those 9 columns on the left have a combined width of 0????
What I'd like to see is the trace of your Control+ operation (which you say fixes the problem).

That would make sense right? Since the panel is slammed as far to the left as possible... Unfortunately i can't give you xdebug as it seems to grab all the program inputs... so here is xtree trace after hitting ctrl/-

0 16:09:48 <TELNET:45e4> Adjusting fonts by -10%...
1 16:09:48 <TELNET:45e4> Updating cells...
2 16:09:48 <TELNET:45e4> Font housekeeping...
3 16:09:48 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter opt pos: 388, tree width: 1231
4 16:10:02 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
5 16:10:02 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!

There are a couple of mysteries here - one is why the initial auto-positioned splitter bar is so far to the right (1065 out of a total tree width of 1231, compared to the eventual position at 388), and why when we manually try to recalculate where it should go, all the columns are marked as invisible and thus zero width.

I'm not sure it makes sense to keep digging deeper into this rabbit hole, but I guess there is no harm in adding a fail-safe to avoid extreme positions. Feel free to try this one...

ash-6.5.1709.0c-w32c-upd.zip

OK now the splitter is way out to the right. It seems like it is taking the hidden cols into consideration in the panel calculation. Perhaps it's just not going to work if you hide a column to the left of the split. We do agree on one thing we aren't getting anywhere... i will wait until i have a prototype for you to play with or you can create on your side. Moving on for now.


3 11:58:13 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
4 11:58:15 <TELNET:45e4> wait on socket: 11:58:05 .....
5 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
6 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 1,1
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
7 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> after sendkbdstr: 0,2
, icc=0, buf[0]=0
8 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE begin: ctlno=-1, op=0, flags=2204e0ff,801000, tgt=0,0, t/l idx=0,0, navcd/msk=0x0/0x0, pos=12000,1000, par=2, max=7, icc=0, hwe=0
9 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> xtree: auto-assign ctlid 0
10 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> xtree in: op=0, ctlno=0, active=7, par=2, trow/col=0,0, iaclick=0,0, lastxc=0, max=7
11 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> DPI: 96, comboheight: 24, largebuttons: 1, hbtn: 3f0509b2, -dpm: 0, chkbox: 21
12 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~Font~H~HdrScale=80~HdrFont=Tahoma,9600
13 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 0~0~x~H~PopupMenu=|%miame%\icons\beta\our_customers_64.png=24|Add Client,VK_xF20001;|%miame%\icons\beta\open_64.png=24|Open in Excel,$EXPCSV+;-----,;|%miame%\icons\beta\refresh_64.png=24|Reset Columns,$RESETCFG
14 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=0: 1~1~Color~Hb
15 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=1: 2~1~Filter~H0UE#
16 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=2: 3~7~Reserved~HS
17 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=3: 10~4~Num~#H~Filter=None
18 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=4: 14~20~Type~SH
19 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=5: 34~20~Active~SH
20 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=6: 54~100~Customer::Total: 7~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
21 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=7: 154~20~DB~S|~Filter=None
22 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=8: 174~40~Status~S|~Dspmin=3
23 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=9: 214~50~EHR~S|
24 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=10: 317~10~PMS
Package~S|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
25 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=11: 327~10~Contract
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
26 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=12: 337~10~Subscription
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
27 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=13: 357~10~Live
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
28 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=14: 347~10~Completed
Date~D|~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
29 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=15: 367~100~Notes~S~Dspmin=3~Filter=None
30 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgEven=234,243,255
31 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgOdd=255,255,255
32 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,150,150,R
33 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=131,201,129,G
34 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,170,Y
35 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,255,255,W
36 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=150,150,150,Z
37 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=100,100,100,D
38 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=255,182,108,O
39 11:58:17 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbg=0,128,255,B
40 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~X~H~FooterScale=80~FooterFont=Tahoma,9600
41 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE coldef cidx=16: 0~0~x~H~RGBbgFooter=255,255,200
42 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
43 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Coldef processing complete (219 ms)
44 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 18, id=1772
45 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> 7 Items loaded / 0 deleted from data array: 0 ms
46 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Sorting col 6, order 0, ctrlkey=fffffc19, flags=80000000, colflags=8001,0,20000
47 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go1: clock=1952546812
48 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE selrow = , key =
49 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Set optimization limit to 100 rows (col 15)
50 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Columns optimized: 31 ms (rows=7, cols=17)
51 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
52 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter opt pos: 1065, tree width: 1231
53 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter recalc pos: 0
54 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> xtree_go: time=1952546921, leftsplit=9,0
55 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 12, id=1772
56 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter opt pos: 1065, tree width: 1231
57 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> Splitter recalc pos: 0
58 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 22, id=1772
59 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 24, id=1772
60 11:58:18 <TELNET:45e4> SETFOCUS
61 11:58:19 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 24, id=1772
62 11:58:19 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 24, id=1772
63 11:58:19 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 24, id=1772
64 11:58:19 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 24, id=1772
65 11:58:19 <TELNET:45e4> XTREE msg 23, id=1772
66 11:58:20 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,13) cache error!
67 11:58:20 <TELNET:45e4> Sysmsgv(SYSMSG,4,14) cache error!

For what it's worth, I added a new alternative/workaround for this problem of optimizing the position of the splitter. As of 6.5.1720.0, you can set XTR.LEFTPANEWIDTH = -2 to force XTREE to use it's own logic for estimating the optimum position (instead of using the control's internal logic if you set XTR.LEFTPANEWIDTH = 0). It's now available for testing in this beta version...

ash-6.5.1720.0-w32-upd.zip

Hi,
The initial position of the split bar is something that I stop bothering a long ago because never was able to have full control of it, but now that you brought it up, I revisited one of my problematic XTREEs and here is my diagnostic.

1. Using xtr.leftpanewidth = 0
On the first CREATE, the split bar is not correct but after REFRESH, that also uses XTROP'CREATE, the split bar goes to the correct position.
(in picture 1, the red arrow should point to an XTREE with the split bar in the right position but it got truncated, consider picture #3 to ilustrate the result after the REFRESH)
2. Using the new xtr.leftpanewidth = -2
Neither on the first CREATE nor after REFRESH, the split bar goes to the right postion, it's always in the wrong place.
3. Defining Dspwid to each column on the left pane and assigning the sum of them to xtr.leftpanewidth
The split bar is always on the right position.

NOTE: Both columns have explicit Dspwid, 9 and 12 respectively.

I believe that any logic to calculate this automatically is very difficult considering all possible combinations for font size, resolution and other settings for display.
According the documentation:
If zero, then XTREE will try to determine the optimum width by adding up the optimum display widths of the initially visible rows.

Wouldn't it be the case to sum the Dspwid of the columns when explicitely defined?

Anyway, many thanks to bring this up because, now I have a method to make it work.

Thanks for the detailed feedback, even if it isn't all positive. To answer your last question: yes, that seems very sensible (i.e. why not at least check to see if the columns to the left of the splitter all have defined Dspwid values, and if so, use them?) This latest patch (for LEFTPANEWIDTH = -2) was put in at the last minute and I didn't really give it as much thought as it probably deserves. The one concern I have about automatically using the Dspwid values (if available) is that I'm not sure what happens when there is "special space" on the far left for the purpose of multi-level indicators or item icons, which I don't think get included in the Dspwid for the first column because they technically aren't part of that column, yet they would need to be taken into account. In theory the built-in optimization should handle that (if it only worked!). And I'm not sure if the -2 workaround does or not.

Let me play with this a bit more ...

I redid the LEFTPANEWIDTH = -2 logic to fix a couple of problems in 6.5.1720.1. There are still cases, particularly involving SHOWROWHDR, where it seems to come up a bit short, but it definitely seems improved from the prior version ...


ash-6.5.1720.1-w32-upd.zip
ash-6.5.1720.1-w32c-upd.zip
ash65notes.txt

Definitely improved and, also, I agree that it looks tight with the limit of the right most column from the left panel, maybe a few extra pixels could make it breath.

Thanks

I guess you could say we run a tight ship!

Then again, maybe we need to go back to the very beginning of this thread (where Steve first wondered about the possibility of a fudge factor a add a few more pixels!) On the other hand, given the long circular path this has taken us on, do we dare?